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PapaRomeo
12-16-2011, 03:47 PM
I have 6 Kontronik Kobe 40LV escs. The best money can buy...

But DJI is not starting the motors properly. Only some of them and then making a lot of noise. Like the motors would get stuck and stuck they are.

I can work the motors usually running but this is thru applying several times the "Stick Commands". The Hexa has flown.

If I bypass the DJI all motors work perfectly.

And what the .... is it with DJI updates and the rar format...

IrisAerial
12-16-2011, 09:47 PM
I wonder what is different about them over the normal esc? For 6 times the cost there had better be something.

GGoodrum
12-16-2011, 11:38 PM
I hate to say it, but I think you might be screwed. There are a number of high-end ESCs, like Kontronics, Castle Creations, Hyperion, etc., that don't play nice with multi rotor flight control systems, such as the WK-M. Sometimes the problem is that they don't arm properly, mainly due to not seeing a proper signal from the receiver. The WK-M needs to initialize for a few seconds before it starts outputting throttle signals. One thing you might try is powering up the WK-M first, and then the ESCs.

-- Gary

jffry7
12-17-2011, 12:43 AM
Gary might be right, tho I know the CC ESC only have issue with the auto-throttle calibration causing unstable flight. The Kontronik may have the same Auto-Programming-Mode. Maybe try to set your ESC in plane mode? Hope you get it sorted out. I have Jive before but didnt bother to fiddle with them and sold it off and got cheap ESC serves me well for over 30-40 flights so expensive ESC might not be required after all. Unless you use those that were really intended for Multi's

PapaRomeo
12-17-2011, 03:16 AM
So much for the Counter ESCs!!!

People are putting 200 hundred dollar Plettenbergs into their super expensive multirotors and flying cameras like the Epic and then using 9 dollar Hobbyking **** (ESCs)... That is like putting a saddle on a cow. There are big differences with the ESCs and over the years I have been flying e-planes and helis Kontronik has been my favorite. But HobbyKing is not an option.

This is a problem with DJI and they should address these short comings not me especially when the advertising is all about the "COUNTER ESCS". And they recommend Kontronik for their ACE ONEs. Just from a marketing point of view I thought that DJI is associated with premium technology and not really low end equipment.

I will try the recommended procedure to power up the WKM first and then my "COUNTER ESCs".

PapaRomeo
12-17-2011, 03:17 AM
My Kontroniks are in Plane Mode.

jffry7
12-17-2011, 04:30 AM
I have no more Kontronik to play around sadly

PapaRomeo
12-17-2011, 04:54 AM
Extremely smooth control over entire throttle range. Also the best governor function of all escs (not needed for multirotor). And their 40A esc is 40A continous and can handle much higher peak currents. Excellent service, upgradibility, warranty. Reliability is also second to none according to my experience over 6 years I have been using their equipment.

PapaRomeo
12-17-2011, 09:50 AM
Powering the WKM first and then the Kontronics didn`t change the behaviour. I have motors 1, 3 and 5 working ok but the 2, 4 and 6 just do not want to power up.

Is this DJI problem going to be fixed by firmware update and when. Meanwhile my kit is pretty much useless.

Also DJI needs to address which ESCs are counter escs since that is what they advertise. Also that company has a eb site with FAQ that is empty.

GGoodrum
12-17-2011, 11:20 AM
If three are working, but three are not, it might be an end point issue. What sort of throttle range calibration function do these ESCs have? The so-called "cheap" brands have you power up the ESC with the throttle at 100%, and then back to zero. This sets the 0-100% range in the ESC. The reason many higher-end ESCs don't work is because they have an auto calibration function that resets the throttle range automatically, each time it is powered up. This is not good for a controller that uses the throttle as the only way to control all aspects of flight. Another issue with with "expensive" ESCs is that they tend to limit their input rate, preferring to use that "extra" processing time for all those bells and whistles they add for functions that go unused on a MR platform. The simpler ESCs tend to have faster update rates, right out of the box, and most of them can be re-flashed with modified software to up the input rate to like 400-500Hz, which is what most MR flight controllers use on the throttle outputs.

I haven't even heard of anyone here, or on RCGroups, ever having one of the "simple" ESCs fail. These days, these things are extremely reliable, wherever they come from. Also, these ESCs (http://montorc.com/MT30ABEC.aspx) are closer to $30, not $9, if that makes you feel any better, and they've already been re-flashed to have 400Hz update rates. There's also these (http://www.quadroufo.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_6&products_id=37&osCsid=f4h5j4jkfa1tniv4stsh299h97), for about $17, that Ken will re-flash to the higher update rate for free.

Anyway, I think it's time you climbed back down off that "high horse" of yours, and got ol' Bessie used to a saddle. :02.47-tranquillity:

-- Gary

PapaRomeo
12-19-2011, 05:08 AM
I have reprogrammed the Kontroniks to their defaults (APM-mode) and now they all run but it seems that the throttle range is very limited. Meaning the motors spin imo way too fast after the start up sticks. Too fast to try with the props on. Or maybe I have to try with a 2s battery.

DJI support ofcourse is non existent. I written that company several times but no replies.

Garys suggestions of escs are too small, I would need 5s and 40A. That site also sells something called PULSO. Are they compatible with this DJI?

mbsteed
12-20-2011, 12:37 AM
I read somewhere the Pulso's are not compatible with the DJI. I am struggling to find ESCs in this range as well. Most of the recommendations are for HobbyWing (Fentium) or Turnigy plush - but the reviews on the 40A plush is not favourable on HobbyKiing.

I contacted montorc.com and they indicated they intend to get Maytech 40A in but not for 3-4 weeks - but I am not sure if those work with DJI.

Not sure if this is a good one or not (I think these are the same as the Fentium):

http://helidirect.com/hobbywing-flyfun-brushless-esc-40a-wbec-built-in-version-41-p-236

PapaRomeo
12-20-2011, 02:58 AM
I have now "succesfully" contacted DJI regards the Kontronik issue.

PapaRomeo
12-20-2011, 03:02 AM
My tests also show that the Kontronik problem goes away under no load situation. So when testing and programming the system without the props as recommended in the manual all seems just great. Everything works as should motors start up smoothly and rotates in correct directions.

But when you put the props on the problems start. Only a random few will start and the others fail with terrible squeking and squeling sounds.

GGoodrum
12-20-2011, 03:39 AM
I read somewhere the Pulso's are not compatible with the DJI. I am struggling to find ESCs in this range as well. Most of the recommendations are for HobbyWing (Fentium) or Turnigy plush - but the reviews on the 40A plush is not favourable on HobbyKiing.

I contacted montorc.com and they indicated they intend to get Maytech 40A in but not for 3-4 weeks - but I am not sure if those work with DJI.

The 30A Maytechs are basically reflashed HobbyWings, so they end up supporting update rates up to 400Hz, which is a good thing. They also have a 16kHz PWM setting so they aren't so noisy. If they are now going to do a 40A version, these would definitely be my first choice, especially if they will do 5s or 6s.

-- Gary

jffry7
12-20-2011, 03:47 AM
Gary this is the answer I was looking on my thread. I guess either wait or flash some turnigy 40A on 5-6S to support 400hz rates. Thanks

ddmt
12-20-2011, 04:17 AM
The 30A Maytechs are basically reflashed HobbyWings, so they end up supporting update rates up to 400Hz, which is a good thing. They also have a 16kHz PWM setting so they aren't so noisy. If they are now going to do a 40A version, these would definitely be my first choice, especially if they will do 5s or 6s.

-- Gary

Urm, Maytech ESCs are rebranded ZTW ESC, just like Mystery Brand. Not sure if the one Montorc sells are re-flashed using simonk firmware, but if you still can use the programmer card or need to calibrate the tx range then it's using the original firmware.

La Turbine
12-20-2011, 04:22 AM
PapaRomeo : For your bench test, did you try with props on, but in manual mode? Linearity of the throttle could appear strange for you if the autopilot is interfering.

BorisS
12-20-2011, 04:26 AM
ddmt do you know of any 40a ESCs that can be flashed with simonk firmware. All i am finding are 30a max and thats it !

I have the plush 40a not sure what chip is on it and i guess flashing them wouldnt work anyways since i cant get these sandwiched together boards apart.

Thanks Boris

PapaRomeo
12-20-2011, 03:39 PM
La Turbine: Yes I did. The problem is when you set up the quad or hexa and you put it all together everything seems just fine. The motors run as you do not have any props on. But when you start flight testing with the props on you are in for a big surprice of nothing no longer working.

PapaRomeo
12-20-2011, 04:11 PM
Boris: Flashing and braking ESCs apart and to solder wires to them sounds total garbage. Let's not forget that DJI is advertising that WKM can use any ESC!

"Unlike others, WooKong allows the use of regular ESC commonly used in RC helicopter without any wiring modification; Heli mode setup providing a seamless transition for current Ace One AP professionals." DJI WookongM mini website front page

And what are the most commonly used ESCs in RC helicopter are Kontronik, Castle, Hyperion, Jeti, Hacker

La Turbine
12-20-2011, 04:17 PM
I've made the same type of choice for ESCs, and I've choosed Jeti SpinMaster. I was not confident with low cost models. Perhaps is it an error because so much people are happy with them... After testing Jeti on a quad, everything was fine, so I've soldered 6xJeti on my Cinestar6. They work very well, but sometimes I've got one of them that is not starting (the same each time). Strange ! I've only several flights on the CS6, so I need to be more precise while looking at this behavior. Usually, I cut the motors, start again one or two times and everything is OK. But I need to find why ! My settings are all manual settings on the escs, 8Khz, 24, linear throttle curve etc. etc. I can't test anything before the next week !! Good luck with this bad thing...

PapaRomeo
12-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Thanks LA Turbine, maybe you are suffering from this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isNEHEfhtBg

La Turbine
12-20-2011, 04:46 PM
PapaRomeo : most of the time it happens, the motor is just not starting and rare times : it turns slowly with this kind of horrible sound ;)
On mine, the "ferrites" on the ESC wires are still present. I wonder if it can cause something... But I let them because of the servos on the gimbal, to avoid any perturbations... Perhaps a bad idea !
- I will try to start the DJI and after that start the ESC.
- I will take a look at the different options for programming the low and high point of the curve.
- I've heard that it could be a problem of "timing" when we can hear a weird sound like that. But mine is not on "auto", it is manually set (?).

mbsteed
12-20-2011, 08:40 PM
I was worried that the heavy lift build would stress the 30A. However, Ken confirmed that the 30A ESC is fine as long as you stick with 4s batteries. You will need the 40A if you go with 5s. ....so I will probably go with 4s battery and go with the 30A.

BorisS
12-21-2011, 03:32 AM
Boris: Flashing and braking ESCs apart and to solder wires to them sounds total garbage. Let's not forget that DJI is advertising that WKM can use any ESC!

"Unlike others, WooKong allows the use of regular ESC commonly used in RC helicopter without any wiring modification; Heli mode setup providing a seamless transition for current Ace One AP professionals." DJI WookongM mini website front page

And what are the most commonly used ESCs in RC helicopter are Kontronik, Castle, Hyperion, Jeti, Hacker

Sorry Paparomeo, I tottaly agree and misused your thread. I am actually using Herkules ESC boards not comparable to counter ESCs actually. I am still very interested though in counter ESCs with modified firmware specially for multis. And since I couldn't figure out yet which 40a would work or can be altered with a modified fw, I wanted to catch and ask ddmt, hoping he knows.

I am also very interested in higher quality counter ESCs but the reason I haven't tried any yet is because I can't tell how adequate their firmware is for multis. Firmware designed for those mainly adresse heli or plans. Saying that DJI says any counter ESCs works but some of us using multirotor specific ESCs like Herkules or flashed counter ESCs think to have seen improvements to their copter when it comes to stability. Compared to standard ESCs with default fw.

Boris

ddmt
12-22-2011, 04:07 AM
ddmt do you know of any 40a ESCs that can be flashed with simonk firmware. All i am finding are 30a max and thats it !

I have the plush 40a not sure what chip is on it and i guess flashing them wouldnt work anyways since i cant get these sandwiched together boards apart.

Thanks Boris

If you can find the plush with atmel chip, then yeah that will work just fine with simonk's FW.

DennyR
12-22-2011, 07:22 AM
I have reprogrammed the Kontroniks to their defaults (APM-mode) and now they all run but it seems that the throttle range is very limited. Meaning the motors spin imo way too fast after the start up sticks. Too fast to try with the props on. Or maybe I have to try with a 2s battery.

DJI support ofcourse is non existent. I written that company several times but no replies.

Garys suggestions of escs are too small, I would need 5s and 40A. That site also sells something called PULSO. Are they compatible with this DJI?

Pulso dont work properly with DJI. Don't know if they can be reflashed. They will run and take-off but response seems very slow.

BorisS
12-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Thanks ddmt i have the sandwich built plush and i cant take them apart to get the the chip. Maybe i am just chicken to brake them and it would work with more force.

Paparomeo. What you can try is trick the WKM. No props on start the motors up in attitude mode and pick up the bird bring it to two meters height and the motors should reduce speed. WKM senses an alt change in a under mid stick position and should regulate down. If it does switch it off and start the bird again. It should remember the start up speed.

I have just experienced a couple times that the bird reacts completely differently concerning motors start up speed when i switch payloads. Meaning if i flew the bird with full payload 1 kg cam 2 lipos etc. and than take off the payload he start off with a much to high motor speed. Still using the calculation of the payload midstick etc. from before.

If the spin up already is to high in manual this trick might be useless but still try it. Who knows how it calculates/interprets the startup speed and is might even influence manual mode.

Boris

redridinghood
12-22-2011, 07:46 AM
Boris my 2 month old 40 and 60 amp Plush are silab.

BorisS
12-22-2011, 08:12 AM
thanks red,

mine are maybe 4 months old I guess they probably are also silab. I would just love to have a cheaper 40a options than the hercules. As much as i like the herkules boards to have them on all birds kills my budget.

Boris

GGoodrum
12-22-2011, 08:55 AM
Here are some 40A Maytechs (http://www.xc-rc.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_55&products_id=379&zenid=faff0672438bd208d934f041993a3dd1) from an Australian site, which already have the higher update rate, have a 16kHz PWM setting (less motor whine...) and are good up to 6s. :)

-- Gary

PapaRomeo
12-23-2011, 03:12 AM
Double post

PapaRomeo
12-23-2011, 03:22 AM
DJI Support has replied

They admit that the only compatible ESC is Hobbywing. They do not specify which but obviously all Hobbywings work.

Later in specs on their web site they go and scpecify that 400Hz Escs are compatible but that frequency rating is not a standard selling point of any ESC. Counter ESCs are advertised by their AMPs and Volts and sometimes their features but newer by their HERTZ... "Use Regular over counter ESC", "Unlike other systems, the DJI WooKong allows you to use regular speed controllers (ESC) that are commonly used in the RC model world, without any specific wiring or software modification."

I am thinking about returning my 2x WKM units to my dealer since they have been sold on lies and misinformation.

The biggest worry is what else is not true with DJI and can you trust devices built by such company who brakes their major marketing promises...

Terrible mistake! They really need to fix their firmware yesterday and live up to their marketing message.

mbsteed
12-23-2011, 09:01 AM
Well that part of their marketing maybe slightly off and it will probably cause folks some grief. This may cause me pain because I have ordered the Maytech 30A for my build but I would be surprised if those don't work. That said, DJI may still be the best option out there unless you are into soldering and want to go the Mikrokopter approach (I don't think Mikrokopter gets it either for other reasons) and then you are into their ESCs or some kind of work around. I think you need to cut DJI some slack, first the whole multi rotor thing is only a few years old, and for this company, the multi rotor option has only recently been released, so this is new for them ...and most companies oversell their products. This is really the first attempt by any company to create something that is a serious step up from a technical build that most folks want to avoid. ...so if you return your product then what? ...go Mikrokopter and build the thing, go with a cheaper solution with fewer options, or give up on it entirely? I suggest you read the forum threads on this product and that will give you a good sense for how it performs.

ddmt
12-23-2011, 09:03 PM
False advertising? Not really IMHO, they never say it will work with ALL over the counter ESC. They only say it will work with regular over the counter ESC, true, like the Hobbywing and re-branded hobbywing ESCs.

PapaRomeo
12-24-2011, 04:51 AM
ddmt>Maybe not in USA. But yes in EU.

Why do not they claim that it works with Hobbywing and modified Turnigys? If it it works basically with one or a few ESCs you can't really claim commonly available ESCs. I could not find any dealers selling these ESCs in EU.

The fact is that they did not know and not did their dealers either at least my dealer had no idea what was the problem.

DJI supports first answer was that I did not know how to program my ESCs (Kontronics). Then I wrote back and said that the ESCs are properly programmed and sent the video.

Took them over 2 days to get back and then they had discovered that "Kontronics may be popular and good with helicopters and planes but do not work well with multis" and they recommended me to buy Hobbywing.

mbsteed: I have a lot of experience with DJI systems and have been a very good customer for them since the very early days of their business. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on their systems and have encountered all kinds of challenges and dealt with them. I have also a lot of experience in RC. I have flown helis since the nineties and I fly frequently electric planes, turbine jets, turbine helicopters, electric helis and these multis.

The thing is that if a corporation "oversells" the trust is easily lost and replaced by doubt. You see these devices are potentially very dangerous. It is not a matter of slack it is a matter of air safety and professionalism. Maybe you can afford the slack if you are a hobbyist but if you fly these for money you should not.

La Turbine
12-27-2011, 06:49 AM
I've made 8 flights this morning with Jeti MasterSpin 33A + DJI + CS6, and everything was just fine. No strange things like the other day. Only the last flight was with the maximum payload (GH2 + gimbal). The last time I saw the bad starting of one motor, was when I was trying big 14'' props. Today, the best flying attitude was with APC SF 12x3.8 (12x6 , 13x6.5 and 14x4.7 wasn't nice...). Perhaps a loose connexion was the fault. The weeks before I was playing a lot with programming the ESC with a jetibox (so I've made a lot of wiring/unwiring). I will tell if I see something again (or not), because I will fly a lot this week. Hope it helps.